New iMacs

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22368

New iMacs have been released, and they have Thunderbolt, which looks pretty impressive in terms of throughput and flexibility. Is this a standard that is likely to stick? I think it might actually, it certainly seems to have more going for it than Firewire.

http://www.apple.com/uk/thunderbolt/

Not looking to replace my iMac anytime soon, but being as there are virtually zero Thunderbolt storage options out there right now, that isn't too much of a hardship...

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49237

Times Apple has pushed/created a standard that has gone mainstream: 1 ish
Times Apple has pushed/created a standard that has been ignored by pretty much everyone: lots.

They're like Sony in that respect, except that the standards Apple come up with are actually usually quite good.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Thunderbolt is an Intel standard, not an Apple one. Apple just happen to be the first adopters.

Grim... · **Posted:** Tue May 03, 2011 14:19

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Thunderbolt is an Intel standard, not an Apple one. Apple just happen to be the first adopters.

Yeah, but that other one that Intel invented and Apple used didn't catch on.

Can't even remember the name, now. USP? UST? USD?

Something like that.

Grim... · **Posted:** Tue May 03, 2011 14:20

I like the idea of Thunderbolt, but it could have had USB backward-compatibility, and it's got a stupid name.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49237

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Thunderbolt is an Intel standard, not an Apple one. Apple just happen to be the first adopters.

See 'pushed'.

See also the spoiler I forgot to add in that says "This post is RG-bait" :0)

CraigGrannell · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 1639

Thunderbolt should do pretty well, given who's behind it. Just it being standard on Macs should provide some measure of support—after all, as Grim... japed, look at how USB fared when it was welded to the original iMac, before it had become popular on PCs.

As for the new iMacs, I'm only just getting round to installing my new one, which Apple ballsed up in December, so 'yay'.

Speaking of, if anyone in a couple of weeks fancies my old iMac (24", 2.8 GHz Core 2 Duo, 4 GB RAM, 320 GB HDD, boxed, good nick, bar the working but slightly mis-coloured keyboard—it's lost bits of its coating) for £500 + postage/shipping, let me know. (As a sanity check, kitting out the closest-spec Mac—the Mac mini—to the same level costs about £800, and you still wouldn't have a monitor.)

Grim... · **Posted:** Tue May 03, 2011 14:21

Craster wrote:

See also the spoiler I forgot to add in that says "This post is RG-bait" :0)

I need that on all of my posts. And swap RG for "forum".

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49237

CraigGrannell wrote:

look at how USB fared when it was welded to the original iMac, before it had become popular on PCs.

Quite - but then Apple backpedelled away from it completely by heavily pushing firewire as a competing standard and by missing the point of USB entirely by insisting on proprietary cables for iOS devices.

chinnyhill10 · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 15695

Trooper wrote:

I think it might actually, it certainly seems to have more going for it than Firewire.

Firewire is aimed at people like me. I use it every single day. In fact until I moved to a card based camera I couldn't have worked at all without it. However Joe Consumer won't give a toss.

Thundercats (subs please check) is a more all in one port. Which could be a pain in the backside if they are only dishing out one of them. Do you want an external hard disk, a display or a mouse? CHOOSE MORTAL!

We'll see how it goes. Apple have avoided ESATA like it has the plague. I have an SSD in a special caddy for one of my cameras and had to install an ESATA card in the Mac Pro to use it at anything other than pig slow USB. No Mac comes with ESATA and looks like it is never likely to.

CraigGrannell · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 1639

Craster wrote:

Quite - but then Apple backpedelled away from it completely by heavily pushing firewire as a competing standard and by missing the point of USB entirely by insisting on proprietary cables for iOS devices.

That must be why Apple kit has increased the number of USB ports over time and decreased Firewire, except on pro-level machines, where Firewire is more important than USB, due to its constant transfer rates (rather than firing data around in bursts).

And yeah, those proprietary USB cables! Uh, what? Every Mac I've owned has bog-standard USB connectors. On iOS, you have a point (with the Dock connector, but that's more than just USB), but on the laptops and desktops, Apple's only ever offered normal ports.

Grim... · **Posted:** Tue May 03, 2011 14:32

CraigGrannell wrote:

And yeah, those proprietary USB cables! Uh, what?

I think he meant FireWire cables.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49237

No, no, I understand why they do it, but it's frustrating. The great feature of USB is that everyone's got sixteen USB cables lying around. But has to pay for dedicated iOS device cables. And that's my issue. If you want to support USB, support USB. Don't go for a halfway house solution.

Also, USB was my 1 ish. If I was being fairer, I would probably throw AAC in there as well. But fair's no fun.

chinnyhill10 · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 15695

Grim... wrote:

CraigGrannell wrote:

And yeah, those proprietary USB cables! Uh, what?

I think he meant FireWire cables.

What proprietary firewire cables?

Are you getting confused by the fact Firewire 800 has a different connector as it uses more pins?

Or the fact that at the camera end there are a different set of connectors to save space?

I use Firewire on PC and Mac. The cables have been interchangeable since I started in this game. Although I have a dim dim memory of some cables having more pins wired up which could cause problems. But we're talking years and years ago.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

To be fair, the Dock cable has 36 extra pins and wires, most of which are used for features that a naked USB cable couldn't support like line-out and video-out. I'd call that a net gain for most users.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49237

You could quite happily fit a USB mini/micro socket, a line out socket, and a video out socket in the base of the device in the same amount of space. Then you could could use a USB cable for the 99.99999% of occasions where you want to do normal data or charging tasks, and a different cable for the one time in a million you want to plug your iPhone into your TV.

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22368

chinnyhill10 wrote:

Trooper wrote:

I think it might actually, it certainly seems to have more going for it than Firewire.

Firewire is aimed at people like me. I use it every single day. In fact until I moved to a card based camera I couldn't have worked at all without it. However Joe Consumer won't give a toss.

Thundercats (subs please check) is a more all in one port. Which could be a pain in the backside if they are only dishing out one of them. Do you want an external hard disk, a display or a mouse? CHOOSE MORTAL!

We'll see how it goes. Apple have avoided ESATA like it has the plague. I have an SSD in a special caddy for one of my cameras and had to install an ESATA card in the Mac Pro to use it at anything other than pig slow USB. No Mac comes with ESATA and looks like it is never likely to.

My Drobo is currently wired up via Firewire, I did have it on USB but the "random USB connection drop" bug that is in OSX happened to me while I was rebuilding the array, which was really fucking annoying as I didn't want to reboot the Drobo to get it to reconnect while it was doing it's thing, and it's thing took 48 hours or so... Had it connected via Firewire ever since with no problems and increased speed over USB 2, so i'm not dissing Firewire, just saying that it hasn't caught on

Thundercats is all in one, but you can daisy chain 6 devices from the one port, so assuming the future devices you can buy have an in and out, or come with an adaptor to allow you to chain, that shouldn't be an issue.

Grim... · **Posted:** Tue May 03, 2011 14:51

chinnyhill10 wrote:

Grim... wrote:

CraigGrannell wrote:

And yeah, those proprietary USB cables! Uh, what?

I think he meant FireWire cables.

What proprietary firewire cables?

I mean, FireWire cables aren't USB cables.

chinnyhill10 · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 15695

Trooper wrote:

, just saying that it hasn't caught on

This is always a crap argument though. "Catching on" doesn't mean mass consumer acceptance. There are many standards used in a professional environment that Joe Public don't use.

USB is the lowest common denominator. It's cheap and good enough for most people. I don't think anyone ever expected to have firewire mice etc. From the moment I first started using it in, ooooh, about 1999, it was always a fast reliable data transfer mechanism ideally suited to video applications and stuff which might have been previously been done using SCSI.

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22368

chinnyhill10 wrote:

Trooper wrote:

, just saying that it hasn't caught on

This is always a crap argument though. "Catching on" doesn't mean mass consumer acceptance. There are many standards used in a professional environment that Joe Public don't use.

USB is the lowest common denominator. It's cheap and good enough for most people. I don't think anyone ever expected to have firewire mice etc. From the moment I first started using it in, ooooh, about 1999, it was always a fast reliable data transfer mechanism ideally suited to video applications and stuff which might have been previously been done using SCSI.

Jesus.

Ok, replace "catching on" with "expected to be included by default on any new machine and means you don't have to worry about compatibility when you a buy a new accessory or PC"

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

To see some of the possibilities in Thunderbolt, check these upcoming devices out: http://www.sonnettech.com/news/nab2011/index.html

If you're committed to a laptop that spends some (but not all) of its time at a desk, then things like the PCIe chassis could be very useful indeed. Note almost everything on that page has downstream Thunderbolt ports.

Zardoz · **Posted:** Tue May 03, 2011 16:08

I'll wait for Lightfoot.

chinnyhill10 · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 15695

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

almost everything on that page has downstream Thunderbolt ports.

This is important. Although you don't want to end up with terrifying amounts of daisy chaining as one of my friends does with his firewire drives. Better the host device has a reasonable amount of ports.

throughsilver · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 6197

Trooper wrote:

Drobo

First I'd heard of this, so I got my google on. Looks very nice! Do you have it with 1TB drives, as one of the humanoids on Amazon said it wasn't so good with large memory sizes (files or storage)? Ta!

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22368

throughsilver wrote:

Trooper wrote:

Drobo

First I'd heard of this, so I got my google on. Looks very nice! Do you have it with 1TB drives, as one of the humanoids on Amazon said it wasn't so good with large memory sizes (files or storage)? Ta!

I have it with 1x1TB and 3x2TB, which gives me 4.5TB of storage space.

It's pretty good, not the fastest of beasts, it will happily stream a 1080p file no problems though but if you want to transfer a lot of content across it can take a while, but then so can any NAS

It's a neat little solution, but not really much better than a straightforward NAS to be honest

Anonymous X · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 2046

Wait, no USB 3.0 in the updated iMacs? Is this intransigence on Apple's part (see: Blu-ray drives), or hasn't the USB 3.0 format taken off enough yet to warrant their addition?

kalmar · **Posted:** Tue May 03, 2011 19:41

Which is better, Thunderbear or USB3?

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

Thundercats have Cheetara... so they win

chinnyhill10 · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 15695

Anonymous X wrote:

Wait, no USB 3.0 in the updated iMacs? Is this intransigence on Apple's part (see: Blu-ray drives), or hasn't the USB 3.0 format taken off enough yet to warrant their addition?

Not part of the Jobs masterplan, pretty much like Blu-Ray. Although they now at least concede Blu-Ray exists and added basic encoding functionality to Final Cut Studio. So now at least I can burn video discs although without any menus whatsoever.

Working for Jobs must be worse than working for Alan Sugar.

Apple HQ:

Quote:

Can we have a white coffee option on our coffee machine Mr Jobs?

No. White coffee does not exist. You may only have black coffee with an optional one sugar, no more. BISCUITS WILL NOT BE PERMITTED!

Meanwhile Amstrad HQ, 1986:

Quote:

Soon after it was launched the PC-1512 ran into a barrage of unexpected criticism. Rumours started that it was unreliable because it didn’t have a fan and so over heated. ICI were quoted as having rejected the machine because of this problem. It was assumed that the machine lacked a fan because it was an Amstrad attempt to cut costs when in fact it didn’t have a fan because the power supply being in the monitor made one unnecessary.
Still the stories grew in number and the reputation of the PC-1512 suffered. Finally Alan Sugar decided to do something about it. After repeatedly telling journalists that the fan wasn’t necessary he gave up -

“I’m a realistic person and we are a marketing organisation, so if it’s the difference between people buying the machine or not, I’ll stick a bloody fan in it. And if they want bright pink spots on it I’ll do that too. What is the use of me banging my head against a brick wall and saying ‘You don’t need the damn fan, sunshine’?

Fans appeared in hard disk based PC-1512’s thereafter and pink spots appeared in many surprising places including Amstrad’s offices.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Not sure it's Apple being authoritan so much as USB3 not being very successful. How many people here have used a PC with USB3 ports, or seen a USB3 device?

chinnyhill10 · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 15695

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Not sure it's Apple being authoritan so much as USB3 not being very successful. How many people here have used a PC with USB3 ports, or seen a USB3 device?

But aren't they backwards compatible? So arguably they'd have nothing to lose from being early adaptors. These are premium machines after all and they weren't exactly slow adopting USB.

However the one that it is currently annoying not to have, despite all its faults, is ESATA.

And the removal of the Expresscard* slot from the 15inch Pro is a pain in the arse as well. The problem is Apple always want to drive the market, not give the market what it wants.

* I shoot onto Expresscards.

Grim... · **Posted:** Tue May 03, 2011 21:41

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Not sure it's Apple being authoritan so much as USB3 not being very successful. How many people here have used a PC with USB3 ports, or seen a USB3 device?

Yo.

lasermink · **Joined:** 31st Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 1883

Grim... wrote:

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Not sure it's Apple being authoritan so much as USB3 not being very successful. How many people here have used a PC with USB3 ports, or seen a USB3 device?

Yo.

Was it a humping dog?

LaceSensor · **Joined:** 2nd Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 3137

Ive got a USB 3 passport type hard drive. But nothing thatll run it at USB 3...

CraigGrannell · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 1639

LaceSensor wrote:

Ive got a USB 3 passport type hard drive. But nothing thatll run it at USB 3...

What one do you have? I need a new back-up unit for my iMac, but am finding it tough to make a decision. (I only need USB2, but need 1TB and want something I can easily remove crap from, which puts WD's current line-up into doubt.)

tossrStu · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 1326

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Not sure it's Apple being authoritan so much as USB3 not being very successful. How many people here have used a PC with USB3 ports, or seen a USB3 device?

Possibly more people than have used a Mac with Thunderball ports, or seen a Thunderbird device.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

That's not a fair comparison -- Thunderbolt is only a few months old. USB3 has been available to OEMs for almost 18 months (http://www.pcworld.com/article/186566/u ... rives.html).

LaceSensor · **Joined:** 2nd Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 3137

CraigGrannell wrote:

LaceSensor wrote:

Ive got a USB 3 passport type hard drive. But nothing thatll run it at USB 3...

What one do you have? I need a new back-up unit for my iMac, but am finding it tough to make a decision. (I only need USB2, but need 1TB and want something I can easily remove crap from, which puts WD's current line-up into doubt.)

Its a WD my passport essentials 500gb.

CraigGrannell · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 1639

I used to love the WD drives, but that SmartDrive junk put me right off them. A nightmare to remove. (I bought a similar LaCie for my mum, and all that needed was a reformat, not arsing about with flashing firmware.)

kalmar · **Posted:** Fri May 27, 2011 9:11

Question for poster "CHINNYHILL10".

A friend has just run into the "Doh! My camcorder doesn't worth with my new Mac, where's the firewire port?" problem. Is there any solution to this, does a firewire to USB converter exist? It's a Sony mini-DV thing.

chinnyhill10 · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 15695

kalmar wrote:

Question for poster "CHINNYHILL10".

A friend has just run into the "Doh! My camcorder doesn't worth with my new Mac, where's the firewire port?" problem. Is there any solution to this, does a firewire to USB converter exist? It's a Sony mini-DV thing.

No panic unless he has a cheapie new Macbook. They still have Firewire on them. It may well be they have dropped the older Firewire 400 connector but the Firewire 800 connector will remain. 800 is backwards compatible.

So he needs a Firewire 800 to (I suspect) mini firewire cable. Easy to get hold of.

If there's no 800 socket then he's shafted, but he shouldn't have been buying a Tesco Value Macbook without checking if it had the ports first. If it has Thunderbolt someone might make a Firewire to Thunderbolt adaptor. But Firewire to USB is a no no. People do sell adaptors but they don't actually work for cameras if the reviews on Amazon etc are anything to go by. Unsurprising as the edit software talks direct to the camera.

kalmar · **Posted:** Fri May 27, 2011 9:33

Sorry, it's a bloody MB Air! S-O-L then?

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

chinnyhill10 wrote:

If it has Thunderbolt someone might make a Firewire to Thunderbolt adaptor.

Yeah, at least Sonnet make one (but it's not out yet).

kalmar wrote:

Sorry, it's a bloody MB Air! S-O-L then?

Yes. No Thunderbolt on the Air.

kalmar · **Posted:** Fri May 27, 2011 10:01

That's bonkers! Thanks for confirming anyway.

So the only solution is a new camcorder, a solid state one, and some sort of nasty cheap USB2 card reader?

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

Yay for Apple!

Removing Firewire? Seriously? FFS

Zardoz · **Posted:** Fri May 27, 2011 10:11

DavPaz wrote:

Seriously? FFS

No.

It's just the shitty MacBook Air that's port shy. The new iMac still has Firewire.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Zardoz wrote:

It's just the shitty MacBook Air that's port shy. The new iMac still has Firewire.

The 13" MacBook and MacBook Pros don't have it either.

The MBA doesn't have Ethernet, either.

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri May 27, 2011 10:14

Blaming Apple for selling a teeny tiny laptop that doesn't have all the ports your camcorder needs is like blaming a restaurant because your steak has meat in it.

Zardoz · **Posted:** Fri May 27, 2011 10:14

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

The 13" MacBook and MacBook Pros don't have it either.

Oh, that's pretty wank.

Glad I bought mine when I did. Hate the new glossy displays too on the MBPros.

Zardoz · **Posted:** Fri May 27, 2011 10:15

Grim... wrote:

Blaming Apple for selling a teeny tiny laptop that doesn't have all the ports your camcorder needs is like blaming a restaurant because your steak has meat in it.

Not really.

Be Excellent To Each Other

New iMacs
One port to rule them all

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Be Excellent To Each Other

New iMacs One port to rule them all

Who is online

New iMacs
One port to rule them all