Be Excellent To Each Other

I’m having a really tough time talking to my stepfather, who has always been a bit miserable, but over the past few months this has ramped up to levels that are causing issues throughout any place that he is.

Part of the problem is that he isn’t just miserable, he is exceedingly childish, so you have to walk on eggshells around him in case you say the ‘wrong’ thing.

A typical example. We were talking about desk fans. He said you don’t need electricity to make a fan work. So, I show interest ‘oh, how does that work?’ He says there are videos on Youtube saying you just need some dowel and elastic bands, then you give it a spin and it will carry on running forever. I say ‘wouldn’t that violate one of the laws of Thermodynamics?’ He says a blank no. ‘Oh, I didn’t realise that was possible’ I say, trying to show interest. Later he sends me YouTube videos as ‘proof’. I say I think that they may be fake as there’s a jump in the cut and that the motion of the fan will lose power’. I say I think, rather than I know, because I don’t want to outright say he’s wrong, and maybe we can reach the conclusion that it is maybe not real together. But no. Now he’s not spoken to me for a fortnight.

And this is just one example. You can’t be around him for more than three minutes before he is sulking. You can’t ever have a different idea to him, different opinion to him or know something different to him. You must never be better than him at anything.

My parents came up from London with my brother, who fixed part of our roof, and he literally sat in another part of the house the entire time because he wasn’t the one fixing the roof.

Likewise he has a dash cam. It’s not wired in, just lose wires plugged into a USB on the dash. For years he’s been complaining about it and saying he wants to wire it in. He never does, just complains. So after five whole years of it my mother and brother wired it all in properly. Now it’s all set up perfect. But no, he’s angry and wants to rip it all out because it’s wrong. He doesn’t know why it’s wrong, it just is, so he has pulled all the wires out and it’s currently not working at all.

The thing is, I now dread seeing him. Which means in turn I dread seeing my mother. And my mother is really struggling with it.

He’s been to the doctor many times, and it’s been going on for years, but it’s got worse.

The other day I was speaking to ma and she said he was off to work soon (he’s a London bus driver). I said it was a late start. She said yes, 2:00-11:50pm. I said what were his hours the next day. He said even later. 3pm - 1am. So she repeats that, saying they’d be up late. Then he calls out ‘your mother is stupid’. I ask why? He says because tomorrow’s hours are the same as today’s. Then he calls her stupid again and storms off. She has no way of knowing his hours because they are only on his driver’s app and it’s almost impossible to get any information out of him. Telling me my mother is stupid is the only thing he’s said to me since I dared show any doubt about a YT perpetual motion machine.

The thing is, and this is only my feeling on it, he seems to ‘like’ the attention of being miserable because it means he has justification to be nasty to people, or to very obviously ‘sulk’ in front of people. And by obviously you can try talking to him and he won’t look at, speak to or acknowledge your presence. This can go on for days or weeks.

It’s exhausting and it’s affecting my contact with my mother.

Sounds a little bit like Lady T's mum, when she was still around but especially as she was getting older - and she was in terrible shape. Although it sounds much more severe for you with the sulking. It must be really tough on your mum too as it seems like she realises.

A big part of it for Lady T's mum was that she'd suffered from some TIAs (or 'mini strokes'), so really it was like her head was just a bit broken in some way/s.

It was really sad, but it really made it hard to be around her at times as she would just moan constantly about things she didn't like (new technology or any form of progress development, and her husband, mainly). It was very difficult as she was probably also really depressed but wouldn't consider even thinking about trying do anything to change it. Sometimes I'd get really frustrated, as would everyone, but we had to keep telling ourselves that it wasn't really her fault, just that something was 'broken'.

The title is 'how to talk to someone....' but I suppose one aspect is how much do you really need / have to talk to him, and if you are talking how much can you, or are you willing to, tolerate? And when he's not talking to you, are the impacts bearable for you and your family?

I was reading that thinking "I wonder how old he is?" because it does sound like what Sir Taxalot said. Something is going on with his brain to cause this. I believe personality changes like this could be signs of dementia but I'm not expert so take that as you will. It sounds tough but unfortunately, I don't think there is an answer to your original question.

He’s sixty. I don’t think he’s actually had any personality changes. The problem is he’s always been this way, for the past 20ish years I’ve known him. He goes through some phases of it being really bad but this one is maybe the worst I remember. About twenty years ago he git an early morning bad mood because he’d run out of the flavour of jam he wanted and decided that he not only wasn’t going to attend my sister’s wedding that morning but also wasn’t going to drive my mum. Things like that. They can have big consequences for the smallest thing.

We took them out for lunch and he wanted a coffee. We brought all the drinks over but Russell forgot to bring over sugar as we don’t take it. Rather than ask for sugar, or (god forbid) going and getting the sugar, he just sat there and sulked, until my mother had to read his damned mind and go and get the sugar for him.

I don’t think it’s dementia. I’ve seen the progression of that, but this is definitely a whole life personality thing. He’s been like it since the day he came into my mother’s life. It’s just getting increasingly difficult for me to host this behaviour when he’s in my house, around my family.

It’s difficult because we live in the Midlands and my mum lives in London. She can’t visit alone as she doesn’t drive. I find it very difficult to visit her because the house she is in represents a lot of trauma for me, and if anything his behaviour is even worse in his own home.

I don’t mind him not talking to me, but I don’t want him to be unhappy or feel he needs to do this. And I worry about the impact on ma. My brother lived with them until earlier this year, and I didn’t realise how much of a balance it gave her. Just a normal, rational voice to talk to and a way to have a normal conversation each day. She got depressed when he moved out, which she offset by buying a dog, just so she had something who was happy to spend time with her.

I'm afraid I don't have any advice, but you ( and your mum ) have my absolute sympathy. I had an in-law like that - it felt like it wasn't just them being miserable, it felt like they were actively choosing to be so, to intentionally only see the wrong side of any occasion. It seemed like they preferred being unhappy and complaining about a situation to actually just being happy.

We just cut down contact with her to the absolute minimum possible, but obviously that's not really an option with you. But big hugs.

Some of the things you describe - stuck in his ways, black and white thinking etc - ring autism alarm bells to me.

Then again, he might just be a bit of a knob.

It's a difficult one. You could try asking him, adult to adult, why he's like that. But that rarely goes well.

I had some of that with my auntie in law who was, very unreasonably, being mean to her sister (my mother in law who is basically the best person I've ever met). She ended up doing it the last time at my house when we invited them both over for cake and coffee just before Christmas last year. It had been going on for five years and I was so disgusted at her doing it during an otherwise very nice visit that I basically told her everything she'd done. I was very calm, very logical and, crucially, very fair. And as such I've never spoken to her since (which was mutual). But also neither has my mum in law or wife. It just needed someone to be willing to break the cycle and realise we were better off without her. So don't really expect to reach him in a positive way.

The alternatives are to tolerate it (just by knowing that no-one aged 60+ is ever going to change) or pick up on each infraction as they happen and comment/snap/berate/joke about it.

It's probably a lost cause though. My uncle was a complete disaster but my auntie loved him and they were married for 60+ years before they died. It's not for you to protect your mum but you can still speak to her and ask her what she'd want you to do. As for the house trauma and his behaviour, you've got to weigh that up against the fact that mums don't live forever and so you never know how many chances you will get to stay there. Or just phone her A LOT.

EDIT: but mainly she loves him enough to make that a better option over being alone it seems. You can't fix that. It's a story as old as time. I mean my mum was an OCD clean freak but now she lives with THE SCRUFFIEST MAN IN LONDON and she hates it, but she hates being alone more. What's important to her is probably not what you'd expect. That said, she does need to see your kid I expect. You might just need to be the bigger person and use it as a life lesson. Namely: don't act like a fool when you're his age.

I phone her every day. Often 2-3 times. I usually try to phone when he’s at work because then she can speak freely, but because of his erratic schedule that doesn’t always work out.

And I *will* go visit her, and do occasionally, but she much prefers to come up here. My house is the more comfortable one and we can go out to lunch, etc a lot easier from here. She prefers being here, maybe partly because of my stepfather. Not to go into upsetting detail, but the trauma around me in that house affects both my mother and I, so I think the ‘me not being there’ is for both our benefits. It’s not a dislike, I’ve got cPTSD, so I get bad flashbacks that have lead to really distressing panic attacks there, so it’s a really tricky thing to manage, though I have tried.

And maybe both are true, I don’t know. I’m not so sure he is stuck in his ways (or, rather, his ‘ways’ are not consistent at all), but I definitely think he has black and white thinking, to the point where the way he sees things is definitive and if you have any thought outside of that then it is a personal attack on him.

Could be both!

I was thinking narcissist, though I kind of see where you're coming from.

Yeah, it is for me

He sounds like a fucking selfish baby and he needs someone to talk to him like his parents should have done and teach him to behave like a grown up. I mean making someone miss a wedding because of fucking jam? He needs to have a word with himself.

Or more complicaed, a knob with autism?

He does sound unbearable though. Has anyone called him out on this and pointed out what impact he's having on others?

Honestly, it could be any combination of those factors and more besides. I know his mum said he was really childish when he moved in with my mum ‘what’s it like having to deal with his toddler tantrums?’, but she wasn’t a very nice person, either.

It’s just difficult because I really want to like him, and I care for him very much, but I need some care towards my mother in return for that to happen.

To be fair, this is a perfectly valid read in it, and I think the way a lot of people through his life have thought of him. But everyone is working so hard not to feel this way about him.

Only gently. Like ‘oh, please don’t be like that, Ma has worked really hard to get that _____’ for you’ (that kind of language), but even that leads to more intense and prolonged sulking. I don’t actually know what would happen if someone used plain language to address it. I don’t think it would be good, though.

It sounds like he's spent his entire life expecting people to accommodate him, his wants and his needs. Am I right in thinking he's never had to look after himself?

I'll do it! Put me in coach!

He moved from his mum’s house to my mum’s house, so yeah. She does everything for him. Like sugar and stir his coffee.

It might be too late for him at 60, but this man has never stopped being a child. I hope you find a way to relate to him your way, Mimi and I wish you luck.

Blank them.

Be overly cheery.

Drink.

Or any mix of the above.

Why is she still with him. If he is like this?

I’m overly cheery, but it’s difficult.

Fear of being alone and some level of codependency, I believe.

She’s stuck by men who have done much, much worse. Men that many people here would actively punch the lights out of given I chance.

Being overly cheery or nice to people who are dickheads doesn't work. You're always going to be judged more for your last perceived wrongdoing than for a lifetime of being nice to them.

I've realised something along the way to being ACTUALLY FIFTY and it's that life is too long for this shit. He doesn't care that you're nice, he's just going to be a fool the whole time. You'll end up treading on eggshells around a guy whose favourite thing is to stomp on eggs and boot them at your forehead for devilment.

Fuck it. If you're mum is happy to come to you and you're not happy to be around him, that's your answer. Unless you're a cognitive behavioural therapist, you're not reaching a man who has been chatting bare foolishness for his entire adult life. And you're not your mum's keeper. She's picked him, she's old enough to know better and that's all on her. All you can do is make yourself available to her. You don't owe him your graciousness though.

https://www.family-institute.org/behavi ... arcissists
I went and looked it up, because I'm aware of the impact narcissistic dependence can bring and I'm worried about you directly and your mum indirectly.

Covert/vulnerable is the type it immediately reminded me of, but I couldn't remember the designation.

Benign is more what Jem 's autism comment reminded me of, and is something I've worried about along the way of my ow journey, and oh look, I'm making it about myself goddammit.

Narcissist or not, finding a way to minimise his impact on your lives while maintaining the relationship with your mum seems like a thing you should work on, for your own benefit. In the nicest possible way, you're being too nice about this.

That's a really interesting read. Thank you, Bik.

I agree. The covert/vulnerable section does describe him very well, with an added element of malevolence. I am pretty sure, after knowing him for 20+ years, that if he sees a behaviour is upsetting my mother (such as not talking to her, or disappearing for hours on an end without even announcing he is leaving (this used to be days at a time earlier in they relationship), he will double down on that behaviour to see what extremes of emotion he can push her to. As it is she has come to accept this and has started to literally ignore what is going on. If he doesn't speak to her she just goes about things as normal for a few days until he stops it. Makes dinner, calls him to tell him it's ready, makes his packed lunch, puts sugar in his coffee, all normal, just doesn't try to engage in conversation where she expects and answer. Still talks to him, but nothing that requires a response. It's miserable, but I think it is how she has learned to cope.

Woah, reading the rest of this makes me think that this goes way beyond miserable and into manipulative and/or abusive, just... awful really. Good grief.

I can relate to being a bit of a mardy-bum and moping around but the thing about the wedding and the jam is just unbelievable.

Has anyone ever actually stood up and ripped into him for that? I don't often fight back and I totally avoid things but I think whatever consequences came would be well worth it just to express how incredibly cuntish that was.

I worry that this is going to come across wrong and I really don't want to upset you, as you seem like such a lovely and caring person, but why do you want to like him? He sounds really unlikable. And it's understandable that many people would feel that way too.

Some people just aren't worth the time or effort or even any thought. I do appreciate that makes it really hard for your mum as she probably feels caught in the middle, and it's tough for you too.

Years ago he was a different person. When he first met my mum he was the high wizard of a very large Wiccan order. His mum is a very renowned high priestess of that same large Wiccan order. With power brings adulation, I guess, and so he was always surrounded by women and temptation, so he treated my mother badly. Spent more time in the arms of other women than he did my mum despite the fact he was living with my mum. Would disappear for days if not weeks at a time. Her self respect was at an all time low and she was broken.

At that time I did call him out on it once. As a result I wasn’t informed of or invited to their hand fasting or official wedding, and ultimately they didn’t speak to me at all for over ten years. My mother only started properly speaking to me when Darwin was born, really. I’d say I was now her closest friend and ally.

But my stepfather HAS changed. He left the order because he had a massive falling out with his mother, and he mellowed. The combination of time, age and loss of that power has meant he’s no longer sleeping with everyone he sees. He hasn’t got that option, maybe. Maybe that’s the only reason, I don’t know. But he found some core goodness, I think. But his personality and the way he expresses himself are so difficult to like.

So that, in (not) short, is why I want to like him. Maybe it’s because in some ways he is better than he used to be, and in others it’s because I worry if I call him out I won’t speak to my mother in the latter years of her life.

Just to clarify: I’m not a Wiccan, I’m atheist. Ma was a Wiccan, but I don’t know if she ever really believed it or just thought it was cool.

That second sentence spun me for a loop. And it just got better/worse. I think we might be getting to the bottom of yer man's issues here.

Yeah, I did start to realise how ridiculous it all sounded when I wrote it down.

I agree with Dazpaz. Always have, always will.

Blessed be, Praisebot